tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post4743464697878477004..comments2023-10-24T04:11:10.624-06:00Comments on Grassroots Gamemaster: The Catalog of ExcusesGrassroots Gamemaster,http://www.blogger.com/profile/06222812421052643632noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-28125075426231847182008-03-02T19:53:00.000-06:002008-03-02T19:53:00.000-06:00About Mozart: he had an advantage over other media...About Mozart: he had an advantage over other media.<BR/><BR/>Although he still had to work in order to get his work done (which means doing the equivalent of PROTOTYPING his own product), his best weapon was the WYSIWYG nature of music.<BR/><BR/>You don't get that with games until a long time in the project, and no matter the tools, it's about the sum of many talents of people who can <B>reveal</B> the value of the concept.<BR/>Before you get to that point, the concept is not conclusive in the slightest.<BR/><BR/>It surely helps to some degree if you work from a good concept, but it is still only a very small bit of the final product.<BR/><BR/>I've even seen cases where the original document was largely put aside, to focus on a more day to day progress. That's called empiricism, and it turned out more effective than sticking to the original doc. That for your zoo. <B>Nothing</B> of what you describe though.<BR/><BR/>Now, let's take Portal. The idea probably sounded neat when it burgeoned from a brainstorming, even before it was given its first name (Narbsomething Drop).<BR/>Yes, there was potential, but there was <B>no way</B> to know if it would be good, playable, and fun, until built, tested, refined, retested, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-43456675155376326942007-11-09T22:24:00.000-06:002007-11-09T22:24:00.000-06:00All the pioneers were, at one point or another, lo...All the pioneers were, at one point or another, lone figures out in the wilderness.Grassroots Gamemaster,https://www.blogger.com/profile/06222812421052643632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-15128781099000104192007-11-08T14:24:00.000-06:002007-11-08T14:24:00.000-06:00Dropping a design doc in a pub's lap without much ...Dropping a design doc in a pub's lap without much fanfare is probably just going to lead to disappointment and frustration. You shouldn't consider them your only audience, even if they're ultimately who you intend to sell your ideas to.<BR/><BR/>Posting docs and prototypes on your site won't get you anything you can buy groceries with, but it's one way you can build a reputation as someone who knows what they're talking about.<BR/><BR/>In film and related fields (animation) small teams of "creative vision" type folks tend to coalesce around one or two people. The ability to build a team and get other people interested in your idea, and especially take the important first steps towards realizing that idea, makes you immensely more credible to publishers than being a lone figure out in the wilderness. Pubs are the ones with a lot of money and a lot of promotional muscle, devs are the ones with the creativity and agility. Figure out how to do the things that don't require them first. It's a lot more than just writing docs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-37503785258542677892007-11-07T22:48:00.000-06:002007-11-07T22:48:00.000-06:00How do you let the work speak for itself when it i...How do you let the work speak for itself when it is policy for no one to look at it if you submit it as an individual?Grassroots Gamemaster,https://www.blogger.com/profile/06222812421052643632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-30586674407363006272007-11-06T17:41:00.000-06:002007-11-06T17:41:00.000-06:00That's definitely the most absurd straw-man I thin...That's definitely the most absurd straw-man I think I've read this month. Bonus points for the Randian overtones.<BR/><BR/>I notice there's not actually anything on this blog about game design... rules, systems, representations. Is this intentional?<BR/><BR/>Like I said, the best thing you can probably do at this point is take the energy you spend ranting, trolling forums and backhandedly insulting people, and generate some actual output. Try to make some of your docs a reality. Implementing an idea will tell you a lot more about it than closing your eyes and trying to pretend how it will all play out.<BR/><BR/>You have to understand how it looks to the rest of us, when you insist up and down that <I>geniuses do exist</I>, but the validity of anything you say is unfalsifiable.<BR/><BR/>Likewise, on a development team if you consider your role to be to hand off a design that may or may not work only in theory, you come off as dodging blame if the team runs into trouble implementing it. By your definition the "pure" game designer is a Schroedinger's Cat of incompetence.<BR/><BR/>JS Bach wasn't so much "that musical genius guy" as he was "the guy that wrote Toccata and Fugue in D Minor". Let your work speak for itself. Unless you want to add "the Man is keeping me from creating my masterpiece" to your list of excuses.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-38572208121050919902007-11-06T16:43:00.000-06:002007-11-06T16:43:00.000-06:00What about self-worth? You don't think self-worth ...What about self-worth? You don't think self-worth exists?<BR/><BR/>Let's say I was a football player, but the prevailing wisdom said that no receiver was allowed to run a 50+ yard touchdown until he had 3 years' experience under his belt? What do you think he would do if he got the ball and navigated into the clear by his own talent... but was forbidden from running that touchdown? Why? <I>Just because that's the way it's done! Individual talent won't be tolerated.</I> Either that or if he did run it - several times - no one was allowed to declare him a star player, or put him up as an MVP?Grassroots Gamemaster,https://www.blogger.com/profile/06222812421052643632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-47008581503259961612007-11-05T17:50:00.000-06:002007-11-05T17:50:00.000-06:00"but then, if it's just work - why is it that you ..."but then, if it's just work - why is it that you take one filmmaker, novelist or whatever and ten years of experience and he'll rocket far ahead of any of a hundred others with the same amount?"<BR/><BR/>Your rhetorical question doesn't answer the actual question. Maybe your theoretical artist worked harder, maybe they had more innate ability. It's reasonable to suggest that it's some of both, which was my point in linking the article. You're on shakier ground insisting on one end of the spectrum while dismissing the other.<BR/><BR/>"I can assure you, geniuses do exist."<BR/><BR/>You'd be more convincing if your own self-worth weren't so clearly wrapped up in the issue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-22504858675232164452007-11-05T16:52:00.000-06:002007-11-05T16:52:00.000-06:00Yes, it takes work - but then, if it's just work -...Yes, it takes work - but then, if it's just work - why is it that you take one filmmaker, novelist or whatever and ten years of experience and he'll rocket far ahead of any of a hundred others with the same amount?<BR/><BR/>Even Mozart's contemporaries envied him how easily his talent came. And, if you've ever taught it would stare you in the face how some students excel while others struggle and struggle even after doing *more* work - same age, same grade.<BR/><BR/>This kind of talk is collectivist hogwash. It's a new variant on that violent resistance mediocre minds have toward true genius, which Einstein reminds us exists.<BR/><BR/>I can assure you, geniuses do exist.Grassroots Gamemaster,https://www.blogger.com/profile/06222812421052643632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-10797991017743949482007-11-05T11:17:00.000-06:002007-11-05T11:17:00.000-06:00"However, I just have to ask Mr Seropian where he ..."However, I just have to ask Mr Seropian where he gets his information from? How does he know that genius does not exist? Has he done an exhaustive survey?"<BR/><BR/>Probably not, but others have:<BR/><BR/>http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg19125691.300Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-58603129812811226382007-11-03T19:47:00.000-06:002007-11-03T19:47:00.000-06:00I don't think the status quo has anything to do wi...I don't think the status quo has anything to do with this issue actually. I've been reading over your posts and the forum threads you've linked, and you seem to be fond of throwing up this "everyone's against me" defense as a kind of backhand validation of anything you're arguing for. Jonathan is something of a patron saint of the indie scene so it's especially absurd that you'd accuse him of fighting for the status quo.<BR/><BR/>Listen, it seems like you've drawn a lot of flack for your ideas, but I'm not here to flame you. You're clearly passionate but because you don't have any specific successes to point to, you come off as naive and ungrounded. More rhetoric is not the way to answer that.<BR/><BR/>The best thing to do in your position is to use whatever implementation skills you have - or learn some if you have none - and try to make something. The things you learn from that experience will temper your ideas and make them stronger.<BR/><BR/>This is what I'm trying to point to by saying that docs shouldn't be the primary output of a designer. It's weird to explain it like this, but games are played by humans, so unlike mathematics a particular game design can't be proven in the abstract or "on paper". A real design is something that humans have played. If you want to be useful to a dev team as a designer, you need to help them attain that.<BR/><BR/>It's true that almost no amount of execution can save a crappy idea. It's false that a good idea up front is the biggest challenge and everything after that is just details. These are two separate arguments and you should not conflate them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-85303718630297134402007-11-03T18:23:00.000-06:002007-11-03T18:23:00.000-06:00That is patently untrue. I have *watched* excellen...That is patently untrue. I have *watched* excellent teams take an atrocious design and turn it into a best selling game that got 10s in reviews. Perfect scores!<BR/><BR/>The design doc is not the end all be all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-59522374498155764522007-11-03T09:55:00.000-06:002007-11-03T09:55:00.000-06:00Sorry for "blindsiding" the guy, but he is fightin...Sorry for "blindsiding" the guy, but he is fighting for the status quo, and like they said in the Matrix, anything that feeds off the Matrix will kill you in a second if you threaten the Matrix.<BR/><BR/>I actually never say I'm a genius. What I do say is that we should be trying to discover genius. And that means giving people a chance to reveal their genius.<BR/><BR/>To the "design happens more in production than at the beginning" - the volume of work happens in production, but it's like Sun Tsu said: the foolish general just tries to win the battle; the wise general wins the victory then wins the battle. Writing the initial doc so it has power, force and originality is winning the victory. When it leads to the game going into production, then you have to win the battle - but if you start with a bad concept at the front, nothing you do in production will change that into a good game.Grassroots Gamemaster,https://www.blogger.com/profile/06222812421052643632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-48874370567414656972007-11-02T18:08:00.000-06:002007-11-02T18:08:00.000-06:00Wow, I dunno what to say to this post. I can't bel...Wow, I dunno what to say to this post. I can't believe you snipped that guy's comment and blindsided him in your blog. That is just...all kinds of wrong.<BR/><BR/>That said, what I'm reading is you think you are a genius game designer and if we don't get it its our problem we should just give you mad cash for your great design because its incredibly valuable because you say so.<BR/><BR/>I don't think I'd fall for that kind of con game in any field.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-39418513255375881922007-11-02T13:04:00.000-06:002007-11-02T13:04:00.000-06:00Reading back over the post, the Sid Meier anecdote...Reading back over the post, the Sid Meier anecdote actually supports what I'm saying. He might have had a fantastic doc to start with, but he turned that into a prototype. I'd be curious to hear Sid's take on it, but I'm guessing that the point where he had something interactive, with all the basic variables in play, was the real moment Civ was "born".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-40133381924086421082007-11-02T11:59:00.000-06:002007-11-02T11:59:00.000-06:00I'm a designer myself and I'm not super thrilled w...I'm a designer myself and I'm not super thrilled with any role description that doesn't involve carrying the initial plan forward. Much of the real design on every game I've worked on, from personal projects to bazillion-dollar mainstream projects, happens once production is underway... tuning, iterating, solving all the smaller problems that come up.<BR/><BR/>Design docs are kind of like the moves two adversaries in a kung fu movie do at each other before actually fighting. It's exciting and gives people an idea of what to expect, but it's just a prelude to the actual fighting.<BR/><BR/>I'm definitely not saying that you shouldn't have a clear plan in place at the beginning. On bigger projects especially that would be disastrous.<BR/><BR/>I'm saying designers should not be career doc jockeys. That's not the core design skill in my mind. The core skill is more the ability to make all the implementation decisions that best serve the game's experiential goals, and to make sure the aesthetic and technical goals square with those.<BR/><BR/>It's not clear to me how a designer can provide that if their role is to come in at the beginning, lay down a doc and then move on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-9917538936255841802007-11-02T08:07:00.000-06:002007-11-02T08:07:00.000-06:00As long as developers believe they are taking mone...As long as developers believe they are taking money from publishers to make games for themselves, there is little hope of progress. Change the mindset of making games for oneself, and everything else changes with it.<BR/><BR/>I don't think the games industry is sufficiently mature to make this change yet... But it also doesn't mean that it won't get there.<BR/><BR/>Also: when the change comes, it might not be this one. But any change at this point would be a plus.<BR/><BR/>Best wishes!Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07550565723765898399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-53311466010227253422007-11-02T00:59:00.000-06:002007-11-02T00:59:00.000-06:00("Young" when it comes to making games -- of cours...("Young" when it comes to making games -- of course I have no idea how old you are in actual years.)Jonathan Blowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04553178019118795548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-73722680885989628912007-11-02T00:58:00.000-06:002007-11-02T00:58:00.000-06:00Wow, after reading the rest of the posting I reali...Wow, after reading the rest of the posting I realize how high on yourself you are, and how little you have done in terms of actual work.<BR/><BR/>That's not an insult -- you're just young.<BR/><BR/>I'm going to drop out of this argument since there's nothing in it for me.Jonathan Blowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04553178019118795548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-56342725786786285902007-11-02T00:52:00.000-06:002007-11-02T00:52:00.000-06:00Wow, I don't know how much more clearly I can say ...Wow, I don't know how much more clearly I can say it, but "games are a lot more interactive and thus a lot more complicated than films."<BR/><BR/>I find your update to the main entry to be insulting, and made in the spirit of just trying to argue regardless of the facts, rather than trying to legitimately understand and address what I am saying.<BR/><BR/>What I've been saying is that designing a game is not like aiming a bullet; you can't really see the target from where you are standing, so how can you expect to aim? You kind of know what direction the target is in, but that's all. Designing a game is more like piloting a homing missile, which requires constant attention and thrust to guide it to the target. Someone needs to be steering that missile during its entire flight.<BR/><BR/>I get the feeling that you haven't worked on many substantial games where high design quality was a prominent end-goal...Jonathan Blowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04553178019118795548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-3896277910779384762007-11-02T00:14:00.000-06:002007-11-02T00:14:00.000-06:00I also edited the blog entry to add one of your co...I also edited the blog entry to add one of your comments as one of the excuses.Grassroots Gamemaster,https://www.blogger.com/profile/06222812421052643632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-21680609362501183232007-11-02T00:13:00.000-06:002007-11-02T00:13:00.000-06:00A written design is an implementation. It just doe...A written design is an implementation. It just doesn't have a physical frame rate.<BR/><BR/>I suppose you would also say that a screenplay isn't an implementation of a film because you can't put it in your DVD player and run it. Yet somehow screenplays are crucial in filmmaking.Grassroots Gamemaster,https://www.blogger.com/profile/06222812421052643632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-80724104445693981252007-11-02T00:07:00.000-06:002007-11-02T00:07:00.000-06:00Disagree. I have a game coming out on XBLA soon t...Disagree. I have a game coming out on XBLA soon that I think is as far from "yesterday's game" as anyone's, and it had code from day one.<BR/><BR/>It's your analogies that are inappropriate. We don't need to start laying bricks in order to ensure a building is properly designed. But with games, it's different. A game design is much subtler, harder to perceive and understand. To think that your design works properly, without it seeing implementation, is foolishness (else you are a much more gifted designer than I, in which case I'd like to play some of the games you have made.)Jonathan Blowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04553178019118795548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-86757553462336329562007-11-01T23:39:00.000-06:002007-11-01T23:39:00.000-06:00My last point, Jonathon, is you have not done 5% o...My last point, Jonathon, is you have not done 5% of the work. Only someone who lives in a world of nouns can think that. Tell me, do you also think that an architect has only done 5% of the work he does when you builds a small scale model of a building? - because, after all, he hasn't laid any of the bricks, right.<BR/><BR/>You're thinking is rigid and conventional.Grassroots Gamemaster,https://www.blogger.com/profile/06222812421052643632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-77611527328250587262007-11-01T23:35:00.000-06:002007-11-01T23:35:00.000-06:00Yes, Jonathon. I know that a design is not a stati...Yes, Jonathon. I know that a design is not a static thing.<BR/><BR/>I think you should read my entries carefully. I never ever say that a design document is a holy thing that must not be touched.<BR/><BR/>But, then again, no one in film production treats a screenplay as a static thing. They make it a film from it. But you CAN pitch a screenplay to make a film out of.<BR/><BR/>And, to continue, because you value going to code so fast, you are again placing the value of the manifested thing over the concept behind it. There is a fundamental flaw in that. If anything, you place more emphasis on something far FAR more static than a design document - and that is code. <BR/><BR/>Eisenhower said that plans are worthless, but planning is invaluable. There is something true about code as well. Getting the language and conceptual structure down BEFORE you write any code is far far more important than actually writing the code. Yes, the code needs to be written, but if you write it too soon you can never venture far from remaking yesterday's game.<BR/><BR/>So you're analogy falls flat.Grassroots Gamemaster,https://www.blogger.com/profile/06222812421052643632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9185264187636071069.post-8744641123494157312007-11-01T23:01:00.000-06:002007-11-01T23:01:00.000-06:00After reading some of your older postings, I notic...After reading some of your older postings, I notice that this same idea pervades them: that creating a game design, on paper, is somehow the primary thing that a designer does, and that implementation is relatively unimportant.<BR/><BR/>This is totally wrong, because a game is a running process, not a static thing.<BR/><BR/>Let's look at programming by way of analogy. If a programmer writes a bunch of code, but has never compiled it or tested it, it is not worth much. The more code he writes without testing it, the more it will be full of bugs, perhaps with entire sections that are nonsense. If he writes a million lines, it's going to be a million lines of garbage. <BR/><BR/>Code only starts to have real value when it is run, debugged, made to handle input cases that were not foreseen during the design phase, etc.<BR/><BR/>The same is true for a game design. Until it's implemented, you probably didn't see several major aspects of the design in action. Once you see these, and take them into account, they change the rest of the design. Often a designer will go through many iterations of this process, ending up with something very different from the original design idea (but also much better).Jonathan Blowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04553178019118795548noreply@blogger.com